Jeff Rense: Okay. It's Monday, again. I warned you. And it's the last Monday of August as we stumble into September and then October and then Doomsday, November 8. We will find out if America will survive or if it will be demolished, taken down and lorded over as a pile of social, economic, historical, political, patriotic rubble.

We're literally at the final crossroads. That's what's happening. So pay close attention. We'll follow it as best as we can.

And back tonight is a remarkable friend of ours and a friend of yours. His name is William Tompkins. Bill has been a guest a number of times.

And if you look on the right-hand side of our page for you, Rense.com, you'll find an entire section about Bill Tompkins and our former conversations. Tonight's will be another one.

It's a whole journey. You can jump in on each one of them and be taken on a little voyage that your mind will thank you for. Extraordinary things are discussed and talked about – things that maybe aren't supposed to be talked about, but they are.

Bill is not about to slow down at this point. Remember always, that when you think about outer space, inner space, the oceans, the seas, the land, it doesn't matter if there's water around it, and there's something going on with respect to the military, private operations, hidden operations, ultra-top-secret operations.

It's almost invariably the Navy – the U.S. Navy - the U.S. Navy in outer space. It's here. The U.S. Navy is everywhere.

And many of you have been to Palm Springs. It's a remarkable place. You look almost seemingly straight up and you have enormous mountains right there – Mt. San Jacinto. Very pretty.

It's also, interestingly enough, the subject of part of our conversation tonight. And I can't wait to find out what Bill Tompkins has to say about San Jacinto.

Hello, Bill, welcome back. How are you?

William Tompkins: Hey, I'm great. Looking forward to the program.

Jeff: Good. Good. And now for those of you who don't know, Bill has a background that we've covered many times, and I hope you'll go back and listen to the other programs and understand that this man has lived through history like few others have.

He also happens to have lived for a long time where I am, which is . . . We've had a lot of very interesting, well, . . . no coincidences, remember, but unusual connections. And it's always fun to talk to Bill. It seems like an old friend, and in many ways, I guess we are friends.

Bill, what have you heard from people who have listened to the earlier programs? What are you getting in terms of feedback? What kinds of comments from people?

Bill: Oh, kind of interesting really. Getting calls from France, and getting calls from Russia, and . . .

Jeff: Really?

Bill: . . . of course, the United States. It's amazing.

Jeff: Wow!

Bill: So all your efforts to get the program around the planet are certainly successful, and I'm amazed. It's extremely interesting feedback that we're getting.

Jeff: Well, yeah. That's nice. And it is true, and I've been aware of it vaguely, but this program is listened to literally worldwide. And wherever you are in the world, we really appreciate your being there.

And what we have to offer you, I think, is of great interest to you or you wouldn't be listening. We have Russian listeners. We have a huge audience in Australia, Great Britain – all around the world. People who are realizing at long last that things are not as we are being told.

And listening to people like Bill Tompkins, who is one of a kind, tell us what's really happening, and at least give us information that we can think about and process and come up with our own decisions.

We know one thing, unequivocally, and that's that the government and the military will always lie to us. That's just the nature of the beast. They will not share.

So good, Bill. People in Russia calling. Very interesting. Very interesting.

Bill: Well, it just seems like maybe what we should do is back off just a little bit and kind of open this program up. There's one . . . Gosh, there's one real important thing I think we all need to . . . we need to address it. We need to try to relate to it.

Jeff: Sure. Go to it.

Bill: This universe is a very, very big place to be. Okay?

Jeff: Yeah.

Bill: As many as 200 billion galaxies exist out there. We didn't talk about planetary systems like the solar system.

Jeff: Now these are galaxies like the Milky Way. These are galaxies – 200,000,000,000. At least.

Bill: Galaxies.

Jeff: Ha, ha.

Bill: At least 200 billion. And we have billions of stars in our own galaxy, the Milky Way. Oh, my gosh.

And so for us to take this approach, which unfortunately we've been lied to like you said, that there's no other people out there in the universe but us. It's kind of naïve.

Jeff: That's just ridiculous is what it is. It's absolutely absurd to even say something as dumb as that. Good Lord!

Bill: 200 billion galaxies, all with billions of stars. My gosh! And these stars . . . Most of these stars have planets . . .

Jeff: Yeah.

Bill: . . . like the little solar system that we have.

Jeff: Right.

Bill: Most of them have two stars. Some of them even have three stars. That'd be a hard place to live. You wouldn't know if it's day or night.

Jeff: Three suns.

Bill: Yeah.

Jeff: How wild would that be? A binary would be tough enough, but three? Yeah. Wow!

Bill: Wow! But just to think that we're part of this situation and that people have been cruising, certainly not just the Milky Way galaxy, but all of these other galaxies for probably billions of years.

And so we're just touching the tip of the iceberg when we're talking about this subject.

Jeff: Yes.

Bill: I think that people should write that number down and every once in a while just look at it, and stop and think of what we're now visualizing. We can go out into the desert. We can go out of town and just, on a nice clear night, look up at the sky. There's hundreds of thousands of stars that we can see. Oh, my gosh!

You know, it's fantastic. Even astronomy's fantastic. And our position in this is unbelievably more important than maybe we think. But we are just now learning what's going on.

And I think that the more we can discuss this – this whole subject – they better we are all going to be.

And sort of tonight I don't know what you folks were going to say, but I would sort of like to talk about the galaxy itself.

Jeff: Oh, that's fine.

Bill: And a little bit about where we are in it. And essentially the situation of say a hypothetical case where you will accept that other people are out there in the galaxy. They're cruising the galaxy.

Some of them are just grandchildren with grandma and grandpa in a cruise ship, a cruise galaxy ship, cruising the galaxy having a ball.

Others are coming here, they take a look at us, they don't pay much attention and they go on to the rest of their cruise.

Jeff: So tourism exists on the basis that you're describing it. I've often poked fun at that knowledge that people coming here as tourists would see quite a show on this planet. Ha, ha.

Bill: You're right. Really. And then, I think when they could really just look at how we don't necessarily get along with each other, they could be laughing all the way to the next part of the galaxy.

Jeff: Yeah. I agree with you.

Bill: This could be fun.

Jeff: How many galaxies again? Now, keep in mind when you look up at the Milky Way, friends, and it stretches from horizon to horizon, a band of these bright, concentrated dots of light, that's our little, relatively speaking, galaxy. It's an enormous place this galaxy.

How many galaxies . . . tell them again that we know about or can project are out there in the known universe.

Bill: We have over 200 billion galaxies, all of them with billions of stars. And I think this is really important to address to get ourselves out of this everyday thing that we're forced into and stop and think that we now have this opportunity, for instance, to join with other Nordic people and go out into the galaxy with them.

Not all that stuff about wars going on and the bad side of it, but stop and think of our opportunities that for just around the corner. We will be able to cruise ships out in the galaxy ourselves. I just think that's not exaggerating.

Jeff: In our Milky Way galaxy. Wouldn't that be wonderful to be able to take a cruise through the Milky Way? Wow! And that's probably being done, as Bill is saying, by other intelligent forms of life in this galaxy right now.

It would explain certainly some of the enormous craft that we've seen in our atmosphere near ground level – enormous craft, huge craft. Think of the Phoenix Lights. These craft are over a mile wide some of them. Just enormous. And they could be cruise ships for all we know. It's true and it is an amazing thing to contemplate.

We're kept, Bill, in such a little thimble, a little mental prison, by the controllers of this planet. We have a birthright to know about what you've just mentioned. We have a birthright to think about the absolute enormity of 200 billion galaxies, each with billions of stars like our own sun. We don't think about that. We're not talked to about that. We're not told about that. We're not encouraged to ponder that.

We're encouraged to feel subservient, trapped in debt and under great stress all the time on this little microcosm we call planet Earth.

Bill: Beautiful. Well put. Really. It's astounding. And actually, what we're going into, instead of being negative, it's going to be a lot of fun. You're going to enjoy what takes place.

Jeff: I'm ready.

Bill: I just . . .

Jeff: I'm ready to go.

Bill: I'm ready to sign up right now. Ha, ha, ha.

Jeff: Ha, ha, ha. Well, Bill, . . . If you don't know, Bill Tompkins is 93, proving once again that what I've always said, it's just a number. If you take care of yourself, if you eat right and perhaps have the kind of connections that Bill has, there's no reason we can't live far longer than the average person.

I saw something today. Someone died, someone of note, 52 years of age – some TV actor. Come on. That's being robbed, cheated. We should go 80, 90 easily, and be in full control of our faculties, and you said this could be so much fun. I'm going to put a sign out on my lawn. “I'm ready! Land here!” Whatever.

There are a lot of people listening who are probably saying much the same thing. It would be wonderful to get off this place – the change in our perspective, and our hopes and dreams would be instantaneous.

And a lot of people, contactees, abductees, have had that experience for better or for worse. And there are people out there listening right now who know the truth.

It's like having, which I did, I had . . . I call it an after-death experience when you realize that there is no death, when you get off this planet and realize that there is life everywhere. It's an instantaneous change that you can never retreat from.

Go ahead, Bill.

Bill: Well, I agree with you 100%, really. And the fact that we're in this learning curve, which is right now going straight up across the charts, we're being exposed to reality. We're being . . . We're learning what we should have learned in the university and the schools, but it wasn't taught because these people were controlling us and giving us a difficult time.

I think that trying to, like you said, trying to get out of this atmosphere and into the positive side. There's a lot of really wonderful things taking place and sort of trying to put this thing together.

When we talk about the galaxies and we talk about the numbers of people or different civilizations that could be out there, actually we need to look at our opportunities. And the situation with certain extraterrestrials who are assisting us and I hate to go back to just a couple of three people back at Douglas on the Apollo program, but I have to sort of address that because these three people who were helping us were Nordic people, essentially our cousins if you want the truth. They come from a different part of the arm of the Milky Way galaxy that we're all in.

And incidentally, we're way out in the boonies.

Jeff: Yeah.

Bill: I mean our location in this particular Milky Way galaxy . . . We're like out on the tip of one of the arms of the galaxy.

Jeff: Yeah.

Bill: We're not downtown where all the action is.

Jeff: Ha, ha, ha.

Bill: And so come on. I mean . . . And so the opportunities are tremendous. And so to address these three Nordic people whose thrust was nothing negative for nearly four years. They wanted us to be successful on the Apollo program.

And when we talk about the Apollo program, I don't like to repeat things, but I think it's something that supports . . .

Jeff: It's fine. It's fine to repeat.

Bill: Just going to the Moon was not the Apollo program. The Apollo program, Phase 1, was to build a 10,000-man Naval research and operating base on the Moon, only it was inside, because we were going to build it underground. That was Phase 1.

Phase 2 of the Apollo was to build Naval stations on every habitable planet in the solar system or their moons. Okay?

Phase 3 was to do exactly the same thing on the 12 closest stars.

We just explained the real Apollo mission. So when we're trying to put together requirements for the vehicle or the launch vehicle or for the mission, we're not just addressing getting there. We're addressing all the things that we need to do because these are stepping stones for Phase 2 and Phase 3.

So when we got shot down . . .

Jeff: A question for our listeners. So hold that thought, “When we got shot down . . . “ A question for our listeners. I think what you're clearly putting on the table is the simple fact that the NASA Apollo program, as it was presented and marketed to the public, was essentially a diversion.

The real program was on a second track, completely hidden. The Shuttle program was a diversion. The tragedies were not planned, but they happened.

This is a real interesting field for all of you who are perhaps new to Bill Tompkins. There is a whole other aspect of man in space that we have never been told about that Bill is telling us about and sharing with us. And that's important to keep in mind.

What you're fed in terms of normal information from the government and the military often bares little resemblance, if no resemblance, to reality.

Go ahead, Bill. You said, “When we got shot down . . .” What did you mean?

Bill: Okay. What I meant was, when the Draco-Reptilian people who were already there essentially told us, “Go ahead and finish three or four more of your missions and don't come back.”

Jeff: On the Moon.

Bill: On the Moon. Now, let's back off a little bit on that part. That's not YOUR Moon. Wait a minute. Everybody says it's THEIR Moon. It's not even a moon.

It's a space vehicle which is parked. They have a great big pickup truck. They went out there and pulled this thing that we call a Moon back into the solar system and then they pointed it at us.

Now, stop and think that the Moon doesn't rotate.

Jeff: No, it's bizarre. It sits absolutely fixed in its position to Earth and it shouldn't.

Bill: Everything else in the universe rotates. It is a command center for a number of different extraterrestrial civilization people. And it's not just the Reptilians that did this. It's probably 30 or 40 different types of extraterrestrials who are operating in that particular, what we call, planet. It's just a vehicle which has been parked there.

And it's controlling this region of the tip of this arm of the Milky Way galaxy.

And so when you look at your Moon, which is not yours, and then you stop and think that, wait a minute, maybe this is not YOUR planet either, because a whole bunch of people are out there using this planet as a laboratory.

So in the Apollo program, those two wonderful young ladies and that healthy-looking Nordic guy, who helped us on the Apollo program to make it successful for nearly three and a half years . . . I think that all of the discussion for those periods of time with these three people never made one negative comment.

Everything was 'plus'. Everything was 'for' accomplishment - developing it. Methods.

And, yes, they are very smart people. They come from a different part of the Milky Way galaxy. They are . . . They were here to help us, showing them out in the galaxy and help us fix our own planet.

These were the missions. These were what these people were doing. And there wasn't one single time in the entire time that there was anything negative. Everything was plus.

And to realize that you had these three people, even though most of Engineering did not accept they were extraterrestrial – you know it was a big joke – they really were. And they really did accomplish the basic problem areas on the program. Yes, they would, in the meetings, they would suggest to me telepathically – they're not in the meeting . . . We've got 10 or 12 of us fighting over some item. She slips that answer into my head.

I come up with this and it's the answer or the fix for that part of the Apollo program.

Jeff: Uh.

Bill: Come on here! Even when my assistant section chief and I are on the Douglas DC-7 flying down to the Cape where we got these facilities being built for the Apollo launches, and we're flying there and asking ourselves, “Gee wiz, are we . . . ?” Like my assistant said to me, “Bill, is this safe?”

And I said, “What do you mean is this safe?”

“ . . . for both of us to be going down there? I mean, holy cats, you know, she could do anything back there. She could sell a program to our . . . to Boeing, our competition. She could sell it to the Russians. Really, I think I should go back.”

Jeff: Now, who is this? Who is this, your assistant?

Bill: Yes, my assistant section chief.

Jeff: Okay.

Bill: And who was a real sweet guy.

Jeff: And he got worried that the Nordic woman would . . . That's funny.

Bill: We both leave at the same time. It's just that if any of you can even visualize working on that program where we were working on space. We were working on United States leaving here and going out into space and working with other extraterrestrials.

Even if you read the part in the book, we were going out there to join other extraterrestrials for commercial. And we were going to help them and they could help us.

I think that realizing that we were doing this back then and then going further back to say the '40s with what the American operatives were doing bringing the information to Admiral Rico Botta there in the Naval Air Station San Diego . . .

Jeff: Spies we were sending to Germany for you who haven't been listening. We were getting reports. These people were cycled back here to the states. They were German-Americans sent over to penetrate the Third Reich and find out what was going on. They would come back here and be debriefed and Bill was in on the debriefing along with Admiral Rico Botta at North Island in San Diego. And they would bring the most astonishing information back, which you can hear talked about in our earlier conversations.

Okay, Bill, go ahead.

Bill: Well, I didn't mean to be jumping around, but I'm trying to say that all of this is really one thing. All of this is one event, and that the three Nordic people that were in Engineering helping us, their thrust was for us to be successful in space, not military space, but commercial space.

And I think that we sort of lose the intent here.

Jeff: We do. What is space for now, ladies and gentlemen? Most of you would say “military, spy satellites, weapons in space.” And yes, there are plenty of weapons in space – kinetic weapons, nuclear weapons, who knows what kinds of weapons. Lots of things.

Space is essentially used for defense, offense, espionage, spying on you, on all kinds of things that . . . It really isn't the prime directive that we should be following or using and utilizing in space, but that's what a primitive species like ours does.

Bill: Very well put. Exactly. And I think, too, addressing like we're going out into 12 of the closest stars and building Naval stations there . . .

Jeff: Now, Bill, I've got to ask you. Excuse me. Don't . . . Hold on. There's that 12. There's that number 12 again. 12, 12, 12 apostles, 12, 12. Bakers dozen. 12, 12, 12 x 12 is 144. 12. 2 x 6 is 12. 4 x 3 is 12. 3 x 3 is 9. 9 is the most perfect number, supposedly, in the universe.

12. Always 12. Interesting. It just got me there. Go ahead.

Bill: You're absolutely correct. And there's a another book – there are a lot of good books out . . . There's another book which gets into your numbers there, and it's called “Insider Reveals Secret Space Programs and Extraterrestrial Alliances.” Michael Salla wrote this book and it's interesting because he has gone into much of what you're just talking about, and actually, there's the other element of the Apollo Moon program where Freemasons were all . . . Well, all of the astronauts coming on after the first missions . . . all of them were Freemasons.

So this is like fellas that were . . . When the country started, George Washington was a Freemason. And they designed and built our capitol . . .

Jeff: Washington, D.C.

Bill: . . . back in Washington, D.C.

Jeff: Yeah.

Bill: And every building is laid out in the proper normal way and they're, of course, the Masons are what they say. They're architects. They're designers. They're people that develop.

Jeff: They're builders.

Bill: And so . . . Yeah, they're builders.

Jeff: Another question. Another question before we get too far gone. Don't lose your thought. It is said that the date of a launch, the date of a space mission, the location of a space mission targeting, was all done with great precision by an Egyptian who was involved for years in the NASA program.

Do you know anything about that?

Bill: Wow! That's where I was just going.

Jeff: Okay. We'll get there then. Well, put that back on the table. Proceed where you were and I'm sorry for the interrupting, but that just hit me. And that's a big deal.

You mention Masons. Nothing is left to chance. Everything is planned. There's a reason for everything. That's my point. Go ahead, Bill, please.

Bill: Extremely well laid out. Okay. Yes, the Germans were a problem and we really didn't win the war, because all of the top German scientists and research people, most of them, came to the United States. Some went to Russia.

Some of the Paperclip Program brought these people over, and so they simply continued their space program at NASA. And if you look at the organization charts of NASA, you have an American at the head of it, but then everything changes to Dr. von Braun and Dr. Debus and it just keeps going on. Every department is head by an ex-German scientist.

Jeff: Thank you for not saying the “N” word. They are Germans, and Dr. Debus was the head of NASA – a German scientist who was the former director of the German rocket program at Peenemünde, ended up here being the director of NASA for 1962 to '73, or something like that.

Bill: Yes, you're right.

Jeff: It was a long time. Our program was German. It was a German space program.

Bill: Yes, and they were very smart people, though. Now, they then put a name on every single event on the entire Apollo program. And it's interesting that these names, many of them, are star cluster names out in the galaxy. And others are named by planets. Others are named by stars themselves.

And every name for every event, whether it's landing, whether it's rotating actually between Earth and the Moon, or whether it's orbiting the Moon, everything had a Freemason name.

And then, essentially, they had . . . The first astronaut that landed, the first thing he did, he took the Freemason flag out and pounded it into the dirt. And the photograph in one of the books that's out now shows the astronaut standing by the Freemason logo, which is, I guess, part of again what we've missed as far as the normal release of what happened on the Apollo program.

So the Germans were heavily involved in this, and the Freemasons were heavily involved in the Apollo program Phase 1, 2 and 3, folks, not just getting to the Moon.

But it was a problem because the Apollo program, or an Apollo vehicle, was small. And if any of you have seen that one page in my book where it shows seven different Nova trucks, which were to be built to essentially take the drilling machines to drill tunnels in United States underneath the ground – cavern to cavern.

Jeff: Uh-huh.

Bill: So those Air Force drilling machines – what is pictured . . . one of those . . . in the book 2 and a whole group of people climbing all over it.

Jeff: Yes, and there's another picture of a machine like that. It's painted white. There's a large group of people posing for a photo in front of it, perhaps the engineers and design people and craftsmen that built it. It's an enormous machine – a tunnel-boring machine.

And guess what's on the side of it at the top? The U.S. Air Force initials and the U.S. Air Force logo of the Stars and Stripes.

(Source: U.S. Department of Energy.) Photo of United States Air Force tunnel boring machine at Little Skull Mountain, Nevada, USA, December 1982.

This is a $13 million tunnel boring machine (TBM) used for tunneling at the Nevada Test Site. (Remember that Area 51 is part of the test site.) Many other types of TBMs are used by many government agencies, including the 'nuclear powered TBM' [NTBM] that melts solid rock and leaves behind glass-like walls.

Bill: Yes.

Jeff: If people look at that and can't put two and two together, I don't know what it would take.

Bill: Okay, but continuing that, to be able to disassemble that digger that digs these holes, digs these cavern holes . . .

Jeff: Yeah.

Bill: . . . that's what we had to take up to the Moon. So we disassembled that and put it into these large Nova truck vehicles, again, which are in the book there.

And we trucked all of this equipment up there to drill the holes, find the caverns and build the 10,000-man Naval research and operational base on the Moon. That was just Phase 2. Wow!

So the construction to do this, and, again, if you look back at the book, you're going to see not just one Launch Complex 39, you're going to see dozens of the Apollo launch vehicle launching stations at Cape Kennedy.

And then it goes one way, and then you go the other way, and in the north there's a whole bunch of them. Running south along the coast you've got the Nova launches.

Jeff: Were these Saturn rocket launch pads that you're talking about? We built many more Saturn lift boosters than we know about?

Bill: Yes. And what I'm saying is that we were building roughtly 50 Nova launch facilities like Saturn-launch facilities, because those were trucks to build the facilities on the Moon and to build Navy stations on the planets or their moons.

And we used the same drilling equipment when we got out to the 12 stars to go to their planets and use the same basic drilling machines and put facilities underneath the ground on their planets.

So all of this was one program, people. This was not . . . This is not something that was not a part of . . . You've only seen and addressed 20% of Apollo. And I'm not making a big deal here. But it was a big deal. We were moving out in the galaxy. Now, that's what we were doing with Apollo.

Now, talking about not making everything military, companies like North American – and I went . . . After I got fired from Douglas for presenting all this to Dr. Debus and Dr. von Braun, and then actually getting us a $70 million contract, for instance. They fired me.

So like I've said before, I'm out. My secretary gets back from this trip that she was on and she calls me and tells me to go call Dr. Debus, who's number two guy in NASA. But he has a position, a corporate engineering position at North American Aviation in Los Angeles.

So believe it or not, I actually called this phone number, called Debus. He told me to call a certain man at the corporate office of North American right near L.A. airport, and I had this fantastic paid job with two more Nordic girls to help me over there on not just the Apollo systems, but Nova trucks and a whole box full of other space missions including commercial.

And some 12, 14 years later, North American puts together the program of my launch development program, block diagram, which we talked about many times. It's the concept phase, definition phase, acquisition phase and operational phase of a block diagram that's eight-feet long and a foot high with every single block in proper sequence for the entire weapon system for missile programs for the Apollo or whatever. Okay?

These fellows at North American took that military version for development of missiles and they converted it to a mining operation, which they got involved in in like 1986.

And so these people, then, went ahead and introduced all this same procedure – the Apollo procedure – every step it takes to get there and perform the mission. They put this together. They designed and built their vehicles, not Apollos, okay. They want trucks – truck-type vehicles. Nova-type trucks.

Jeff: When you say a truck-type vehicle, let's paint a little better picture for our listeners for their mind. What are we saying “truck”? A large vehicle being a hauling vehicle like a truck or are these actually trucks with wheels that are sent up there and they can truck around?

Bill: Well, they don't have wheels. But you're right first. They act like heavy trucks to carry equipment.

Jeff: Okay. Heavy haulers.

Bill: Heavy haulers. Okay? And some of them are 20 times the size of an Apollo. Wow! These are big vehicles. Okay. So North American, the commercial guys, take the military program management program and develop not only the vehicle, but works for this. But they develop what equipment they need to go mining on other's star's planets. Wow!

Jeff: Yeah, wow! Now, let me ask another question, Bill, if I might. We had Saturn rockets. The Germans gave us that to boost the Apollo missions into space.

Bill: Yes.

Jeff: We had also at that time, I'm going to use the term “antigravity vehicles”, just because they're . . . it's convenient. But we had enormous craft since the '30s and '40s. We had mastered antigravity flight, according to the German scientists, the German technology, all the pictures that I've been able to gather and put together.

So why didn't we take these enormous drilling machines up to the Moon and elsewhere with these antigravity craft rather than blast some of them off with Saturn 5 rockets?

Bill: That's a good question. And there's a lot of people that have asked the same question.

Essentially, what took place was that there was a massive effort to utilize antigravity. It first was essentially electromagnetic propulsion. And then it later switched over to what it should have been doing, which is antigravitational.

The Apollo program essentially stopped after the original mission and half a dozen further missions that went up.

Jeff: Oh, it stopped like a rock into a wall. It just stopped and they . . .

Bill: It stopped and we never went back.

Jeff: No, and we've allegedly disassembled the Saturn 5 launch vehicle locations and we also supposedly destroyed the tools and dyes used to make the Saturn 5 components. And we also allegedly destroyed the blueprints.

I don't know if any of that's true, but that's what the UFO field has to offer about why and how the Apollo program came to such a sudden and complete ending.

Bill: Well, the primary ending was because the Reptilians were there. It was their facility – their Moon.

Jeff: And they said, “Stay off.”

Bill: And so we were not allowed to. Now, we're still getting support from the Nordics. And so the Nordics being more commercial kinds of people than military, even though they have Naval space battle groups too, which we were going to go do one and build and join with them.

But the entire Apollo program, some 400,000 people, sub-contractors, people who were working in the United States on the Apollo program, and literally everybody got laid off. Everybody got a pink slip.

Nothing was made in the newspapers about it. Everything was covered up. And so essentially, like a meat-cleaver came down - everything stopped. And monies to further the program then stopped also. Anything related to space stopped.

Jeff: It did. It was like the dream was taken away. Gone.

Bill: It was removed. It was removed. And, actually, in my own personal position, I knew what was happening. I could see everybody getting laid off, and I knew what was taking place.

So I quit North American and I went up to Bakersfield and I formed an architectural office up in Bakersfield. I then converted that into a systems program, Land Ocean Systems Corporation, and we started doing systems engineering for all the commercial people including the state of California – all kinds of programs.

And I brought some of that to TRW later on when I went to TRW. So essentially I became one of these non-space people. And so everything stopped.

And your point, what happened, is just that non-stop it was zero. Don't touch it. You can't get the money. There's no way to do it.

So it's not that the idea was wrong or incorrect. And I have to say it's the timing.

But I want to go back to what North American did then. So now North American Aviation, a few guys that were still there and didn't quit, they formed this commercial space operation where they would go ahead and design and build Nova-type vehicles on their commercial basis – classified, because they didn't want people to know, and go out into the solar system, bypass the solar system, and go out to essentially the 12 closest stars and build mining, commercial mining, operations on their moons.

And I have in my hands right here the document that proves it. It's a systems-development block diagram. Unbelievable!

Every single event that it took to build those trucks, Nova-type truck vehicles, to haul their stuff up there, they just went ahead and did this and didn't say anything to anybody.

And other companies did the same thing. So, I'm trying to . . .

Jeff: Where were they launched from, Bill? Were they launched from the Cape?

Bill: No, they were not. They were launched from other facilities, actually, some of them in Australia.

Jeff: Ah, we're talking Pine Gap.

Bill: Yeah, okay. And so what took place was they got organizations with other commercial people that got the money. They took the money, did the finishing of the designs for everything that had to be built there before they started – before they actually started manufacturing – and did a commercial program, which is still operating today under the same name - the old North American Aviation out of LAX. Wow!

And so, again, yes, they used, essentially, my development plan – the systems block diagram – to make sure that you have every event covered in the proper way. And that, of course, was, I have to say . . . When I gave the proposal to NASA to change everything that they'd been doing – three major programs which made . . . allowed us to get the Apollos up there.

Dr. Debus had this thing which he and I seemed to know. We became like brothers. He had his “What if?” And he had boxes full of “What ifs?” on the Apollo program. What if something went wrong? What if something didn't work like it should have? What if we had the wrong information and we'd have to go a different way on whatever?

So his “What if” lists were like a checker in the engineering part – the guy who checks the drawings. He's looking at it to make sure that what you design was correct. The guy that does the checker.

Actually, Dr. Debus, along with everything else that he was a genius in, came up with the “What if” lists. Okay, that flowed off of the Apollo program back down into North American. I mean the documents to locate the “What ifs”, and they did it commercially. Wow! It was really cool.

Jeff: Well, that's amazing. Bill, hold on. We have to pause at the top of the hour for a few minutes. So we're going to do that.

Before you take your break, I have to ask you a question. You mentioned earlier that you flew to the Cape from the L.A. area in a DC-7 . . .

Bill: Yes, sir.

Jeff: . . . the last great prop airliner ever built – the DC-7, Douglas Aircraft DC-7. How was that plane to fly in? Do you remember it?

Bill: Oh, yes. It was fun. It was really fun. We had a brand new one, a DC-7, and they had just finished all of their first flight tests and everything. We were one of the first flights that that particular airplane had taken. And so we got to go talk to the pilots and the co-pilots and the stewardess and everybody was having a ball.

Jeff: Interesting.

Bill: It was so smooth.

Jeff: It was a great airplane. Great airplanes. So the Douglas planes were just terrific. All right. Thank you for sharing that. Oh, by the way, some of you have seen the DC-6s and DC-7s, the four-engine planes flying as air tankers for forest fire work. They're still flying. That's what we're talking about. Those were commercial airliners before jets.

Okay, back with Bill in just a few minutes. His book is “Selected by Extraterrestrials: My Life in the Top Secret World of UFOs, Think Tanks and Nordic Secretaries”. Be right back.